Well spoken words back then and they still apply today.
Where did real men as this from Hollywood go?
Tuesday, May 29, 2007
Robert Mitchum in 1966
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30 comments:
A great actor, but politically, a real moron. What the hell were we doing over there in the first place, that we have to "kill them"? What are we doing over there now? Can you say imperialism, Robbie? No, I didn't think that you could. Moron.
Unfortunately for you, Thomas, I was "over there" for 18 months.
What we doing there? Uh, does the words "free people" ring a bell?
Yes, it turned out badly, but not because of us, because of morons who fell for the Communist inspired anti-war rhetoric spewed by the likes of Hanoi Jane Fonda and John 'F'in Kerry.
If you really do wish to know why we were over there, seek out any of the aging 'Boat People' in America and ask them. Ask them why they risked everything they had to escape the benevolent communist liberators.
Ask them what happened to millions of their fellow countrymen who simply disappeared in "reeducation camps" after the fall of Saigon in 1975.
For Imperialism to have been a factor we would have to have been conquering the nation to establish it as a territory of our own. We did no such a thing.
Instead, we abandoned them in their worst time of need to their fate under the brutal Communists.
Come back when you know what the hell you're talking about.
Lew, "free people"? While we were blowing them away? Murdering women and children in their villages? So that our corporations could control the resources of the world
I don't blame you, and my "Moron" for Robbie was out of disappointment that he, like you, would fall for this free people crap. I don't think he was a moron, I don't think you are one either. Both you and he are/were bright enough to figure this out. He didn't, you still have time. I'm a history professor. I have the curse of reading books. No wasn't over there, thank God. But I suggest, if you're willing to talk to a pointy head like me, that you read authors like Howard Zinn and Isaac Deutscher, and the "goodness" and "freedom" of our imperialist wars. They're not fought for freedom Lew. They're fought for power and profit. And people like you and me, unless we wise up, are just pawns in their game.
One more--add it to the last: Lew where's the scientific process in the formation of your view. If participating in a war, means that war was right, when and where have you acknowledged the possibility that the war in which you participated was wrong? The hallmark of the scientific method is to try very mightily to prove yourself wrong, before you conclude you are right. What you need to do, if you really want to do that, is to do some reading of dissidents like Zinn and Deutscher: Zinn, the Zinn REader, Deutscher, Marxism in our time. This may be a bitter pill to swallow, Lew, but you DID say you welcome opposing views. So go to it! And I'm perfectly willing to hear/read your responses after you've read these guys.
Isn't that what "freedom" is all about?
Lew a free people has free elections. Did Diem allow free elections in South Vietnam. No, because the Communists, leading the national liberation front, would have won those elections. Diem was our puppet, hopelessly corrupt, brutal, fronting for both U.S. imperialism and for a brutally exploitative oligarchic landowning class. You fought on the wrong side, pal. I'm sorry to tell you that. Now look it up and tell me I'm wrong.
Well, Mr. history Professor, apparently you missed that I am a Vietnam Veteran, I was there, boots on the ground in the Central Highlands from July 1969 to January 1971.
I didn't need to read books written by those who hate America and want a socialist mecca, I participated and if you believe for a minute that we were "Murdering women and children in their villages," you're a pitiful professor.
Get your nose out of the books and go talk, face to face with some of those who escaped. I've done that too and shared first hand experiences, not biased books.
If you wish an accounting of the early days of Vietnam, even before the Gulf of Tonkin incident, I will suggest one book you might consider, "Unheralded Victory: The Defeat of the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese Army, 1961-1973" by Mark Woodruff.
He has a meticulously researched history of Vietnam dating back centuries.
Another is "This Time We Win: Revisiting the Tet Offensive" by James S. Robbins.
While those both are good, I still recommend you seek out the aging Boat People in your area and sit down with them and ask them about what went on other there.
I also posted long ago an essay written by a young Vietnamese woman born shortly after the fall of Saigon and who was raised under those benevolent communists: Do You Really Want to Rear Your Child in a Socialist Society?
Perhaps it is time f or you to apply your "The hallmark of the scientific method is to try very mightily to prove yourself wrong, before you conclude you are right" to your own false assumptions.
Oh, and apparently your selection of books left out that the main reason the 1956 elections weren't held was due to the hundreds of thousands of infiltrators into the south that would have ensured a communist victory, just not a fair representation of the South Vietnamese people's views.
But foremost, seek out those who were forced to flee the country after the communist takeover. You might also look up the interview of Col. Bui Tin, who accepted the surrender of Saigon and how he became disillusioned with the communist liberators.
While searching for those survivors, you might also read A Lament for Vietnam also written by a once supporter of the communist liberators.
The choice is yours. But what you think you know about Vietnam is a bag of horse shit.
Dear Lew,
The picture you paint of all vietnam veterans like you supporting the war, and all us intellectuals being the only ones being against, simply does not hold water. Ever hear of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War? BTW, I was in elementary school when you were in Vietnam, so I hope you'll forgive me for not signing up. Thanks for the book suggestions.
Once again, you show your book bred ignorance on the subject. Of course I've heard of VVA.
But, do you not realize that their numbers never amounted to much more than maybe 3,000 out of the over 2.5 million of us who served?
Hardly as representative of us as you would like to think.
Then too, many who were part were not Vietnam Veterans, some having not served at all. And, if you did not do enough research, of all of those who made such claims of daily atrocities that John F'in Kerry spoke of back in 1971 before Congress, not one would or could give any supporting statement of evidence, such as location, approximate date and such of such atrocities they claimed to have witnessed when contacted by CID agents to follow up on their claims.
If you wish to bother, click this link to see all of the CID Reports.
Likewise, if you wish, this link will take you to the VVAW FBI Reports.
Once you've looked through those, if you have any re4al interest in truth, History.com has compiled an interesting and eye opening set of Statistics about the Vietnam War
To take you a little further, since were too young then to recall, some interesting comments came out on Walter Cronkite's perplexing TV Broadcast declaring Tet of 68 a stalemate and we were not winning the war at that time.
Gen. Frederick C. Weyand included in a 2000 speech, "After Tet, General Westmoreland sent Walter Cronkite out to interview me. I was in Command of the Forces in the South around Saigon and below and I was proud of what we'd done. We had done a good job there. So, Walter came down and he spent about an hour and a half interviewing me. And when we got done, he said, “well you've got a fine story. But I'm not going to use any of it because I've been up to Hue. I've seen the thousands of bodies up there in mass graves and I'm determined to do all in my power to bring this war to an end as soon as possible.”
"It didn't seem to matter that those thousands of bodies were of South Vietnamese citizens who had been killed by the Hanoi soldiers and Walter wasn't alone in this because I think many in the media mirrored his view."
"When I was in Paris at the Peace Talks, it was the most frustrating assignment I think I ever had. Sitting in that conference, week after week listening to the Hanoi negotiators, Le Duc Tho and his friends lecture us. Reading from the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Herald Tribune, the Atlanta Constitution, NBC, CBS, you name it. Their message was always the same. “Hey, read your newspapers, listen to your TV. The American people want you out of Vietnam. Now, why don't you just go ahead and get out?” So finally a Peace Agreement was signed that everyone knew would be violated and with no recourse or hope of enforcement on our part."
You would do yourself and your students well to follow your own advice and use that "scientific method" of proving yourself wrong. But do some actual research, stop by a few VFW and American Legion Halls, maybe even the DAV Halls and not only talk to those who were there, but listen to us as well.
No, we didn't necessarily read the books you did. We just participated and we know the truth of it all.
Whether you accept it or cling to the misguided claims you were taught is up to you.
According to those same history books lew, the Vietnam War was wound down because many of those million troops were turning their guns on their officers and opposing the war. FTA went from Fun travel and adventure to Fuck the Army. And if you want to talk about the victims, let's talk about the millions of Indochinese who died as a result of the American onslaught on not just Vietnam, but also Cambodia (ushering in the killing fields of Pol Pot) and Laos. A handful of boat people, while in itself objectionable (I'm not a Stalinist, I hate Stalinism) is nothing in comparison
It was more like "some," not many fragging, but the media had a field day with it, blowing it completely out of proportion.
And most of those came very late when the new troops going over had been subjected to the anti-war left's spin, were already drug addicts and some beneficiaries of America's higher institutions of indoctrination, more commonly called Universities.
FTA was a tactic of the anti-war left, who is now known to have been heavily infiltrated and directed by KGB Agents, misleading the American public.
Ion Mihai Pacepa, the highest ranking KGB Officer to ever defect let it be known, "During the Vietnam War we spread vitriolic stories around the world, pretending that America's presidents sent Genghis Khan-style barbarian soldiers to Vietnam who raped at random, taped electrical wires to human genitals, cut off limbs, blew up bodies and razed entire villages. Those weren't facts. They were our tales, but some seven million Americans ended up being convinced their own president, not communism, was the enemy. As Yuri Andropov, who conceived this dezinformatsiya war against the U.S., used to tell me, people are more willing to believe smut than holiness."
You can read more of what he had to say at Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric: The Vietnam-era antiwar movement got its spin from the Kremlin.
Incidentally, those "killing fields" you mention? They occurred AFTER we abandoned the region. The US had no troops in those.
An article contained in the American Legion Magazine that I received just today might also be of interest to you: Why we went to war in Vietnam
Incidentally, if those books of yours didn't mention it, the much maligned "Domino Theory" fronted for so long by the left was proven true with the fall of Saigon, those "Killing Fields" Laos and more.
Instead of trying to marginalize the Boat People as just a handful, why not read first hand what they endured, those that survived: the Boat People
Again, apply your own "scientific Methods" to test what you think you know. Reach out and meet some of us, talk and listen to us.
As I said, we didn't need to read the books, we participated and saw what really went on.
The truth of Vietnam is slowly coming out after so many years of anti-war leftist rhetoric and false claims.
By the way, in my earlier comment I said "VVA" when I meant "VVAW"
Separate organizations.
Oh, please. KGB agents? You've got to be kidding.
And you never did answer my point about how the "free people of the West" never permitted the "free people of South Vietnam" the chance to vote. AS AGREED UPON BY TREATY.
As educated as you say you are, Mr. Professor, I am sure you are familiar with the phrase "there are none so blind."
What part of a former KGB agent saying how they infiltrated and feed the movement did you miss?
Or don't you ever read anything except the pablum fed you by the leftists?
As a matter of fact, I did answer you on the 1956 elections, but not in the manner you expected apparently.
From a discussion I had long ago on those elections, I wrote: "Elections mandated between the North and South in the cease-fire were to take place within two years, but never did. Ho Chi Minh, already a staunch Communist, had been installed as leader in the North while Bo Dai was installed in the South. Diem was brought back by emperor Bo Dai as Prime Minister and through strong-arm tactics, became the “elected” President in 1955, defeating Bo Dai. Diem proved he wasn’t going to be a “puppet” ruler, doing things his way."
"Several reasons have been given for the elections not taking place. One was the massive influx of refugees, some 850,000, from the North to the South after Communist rule was installed. The South, which had not signed the Geneva Accords, did not feel the Communists in the North would allow fair elections. In January 1957, the International Control Commission (ICC), comprising observers from India, Poland, and Canada, agreed with this perception, reporting that nei¬ther South nor North Vietnam had honored the armistice agreement."
Please explain how it was the America never permitted an election. You seem to have fallen prey to the false notion that we were "occupiers" when we were not, we were there under a Status of Forces Agreement with American Troops being held accountable to Vietnamese Law as well as the Uniformed Code of Military Justice.
While we are still subject to their laws, we were not to be tried in their courts but in American Military Courts, should any of us violate the laws.
Hence, after My Lai, the trials were held in America. And, before you go off on My Lai as an example, I will remind you that it was tried, the carnage was stopped by an American Helicopter Pilot and crew, Hugh Thompson, who landed between the five or six troops firing under Calley's orders (most refused to from his platoon) and with Thompson ordering his door gunners to open fire on the American Troops if they shot one more civilian.
I will make no excuses for that nd add I have always felt more needed to be tried and held accountable, including retired General Colin Powell, who was a Major at the time and helped with efforts to cover it up.
I will also remind you to seek some information on the massacre of Hue City at about the same time, that history has glossed over since it was Communist North Vietnamese slaughtering over 3,000 innocent civilians an no one has ever been tried or held accountable.
May I suggest you now apply your own words of scientific method of proving yourself and your books wrong, beginning with consulting some of the information I have given you.
Perhaps sooner or later, you will realize that those of us who served there might have a better perspective than those who sat back here and opposed us.
Your choice, bub.
Well you and I don't see eye to eye Lew, mostly because you live in anti-communist fantasy land. That KGB agent for example is most certainly just talking in a way that will please his new, imperialist rather than Stalinist masters. He was a lying bastard then and he's still one now. And even if he doesn't think he's lying, he's taking the effects of he and his fellow KGB agents WAY too seriously. As for "us" betraying "you," in the first place, again, I was in elementary school, and in the second, it was you guys--or rather those of you who actually saw through the lie of the war--that actually led to the ending of the war. One can see the dismall effects of the peace movement without a movement like YOURS back in the 60s-70s, in the early 00s. Nothing happened, despite massive protest. When the ruling class wants an imperialist war, it's only the soldiers that can really stop it. And as for those elections, it was very clear that with fair elections in the South, the communists would have won. That's why they didn't happen, despite all the doubletalk you've swallowed and regurgitated.
Are you sure you a "History Professor" and not auditioning as a comic?
You tell me that I am living in a fantasy land, after knowing I was in the war and your information came from biased books? That's the funniest thing I have read in years.
But, as expected from a Progressive/Liberal, once again we see you giving out advice for others that you refuse to do yourself.
I gave you links to online article and titles of reasonable and well researched books. You have the usual lies, distortions, propaganda and anti-war rhetoric with no support whatever, just whatever you were spoon-fed to make you feel you are an expert.
You aren't. You're just another sad liberal talking out of his ass.
The saddest part is that likely you are spreading your disinformation to young minds.
Sad too that you are paid for it.
Since you seem to advocate communism, why not try living in Cuba for a few years and come back and tell us how it was.
You see, I grew up in South Eastern Florida and was there when Castro took over and so many Cubans fled his benevolence.
But what would I know, I only experienced it first hand, not read about it from biased books many years later.
Ok, lew, let's just give it a rest, Ok? You don't have to get insulting. When I get time, I might just check out the sources you provided. I expect you to do the same. And until then, let's just agree to disagree, alright? Well, I don't care if it's alright or not. That's the way it's going to be.
Thomas, you have been insulting since you found out I was a Vietnam Veteran, thinking you could correct my experiences with the same rhetoric I have heard for over 40 years that left me wondering where was all of this going on.
It was far from what I experienced and talking with other Vietnam Vets, far from what they experienced where they were.
You discredit yourself greatly by ignoring what those who were there, not those claiming they were there like many did, have to say and share.
Like I said before, seek out those who were actually there, Veterans, Refugees, especially the Boat People and listen to us.
We were the ones who were in the middle of it all, so we must have a little knowledge on what really happened, don't you think?
No, Lew, I don't. I don't think that your particular set of victims--your poster boys and girls for the wonderful benevolence of American imperialism--are the best judge of what really happened, and the broad social forces that brought this about.
Your trouble is that you see the world according to your own well manipulated, brainwashed experience, without bothering ever to subject it to theoretical critique.
just consider this. Maybe the NLF, in its own misguided, desperate way, was fighting just as much for freedom from American imperialism, as you think you were fighting to "liberate them" (by blowing them away) from communism.
How nice of you and yours to be such wonderful murderous benefactors.
Well I told you I didn't want to get insulting but since you insist.
But please go right ahead and keep talking out of YOUR ass.
Well, Thomas, you prove yourself to be nothing more than another bigoted asshole, enjoying the fruits of what others fought for you to have just so you can demean their efforts.
It's a pity that you are allowed to spew your garbage on young impressionable minds and fill them with the hatred of your country that you have.
For claiming to be a "History Professor," you sure seem to have very little knowledge of actual history. If you did know history, you would be able to see the repeat of what happened in the early 20th century unfolding before your very eyes.
That you feel books written by some who never were involved in a matter is superior to the actual experiences of those who were involved shows not only your ignorance, but your total lack of open-mindedness or willingness to test your own beliefs, as you so readily recommended I do.
As for "American Imperialism," please indicate to me all of these Imperial Lands we govern or have conquered and kept.
You do nothing more than show the world why so many graduates of our public institutions of higher indoctrination pump out so many functional illiterates.
Cling to your hatred, Thomas. Apparently it is all you have.
Lew, I don't understand why you would waste your breath on a pea brain liberal like this. He obviously has absolutely no concept of what the actual facts of why we fought in Vietnam were, other than reading the twisted works written by so-called historians that learned of our involvement second hand. They wrote these historical hacks for the almighty dollar and to also give fodder to other liberal cretins. God forbid if they actually had to go there and take part in actual combat. These people are the same as the weekend armchair quarterbacks, all mouth, no ass.
Thomas, Just to set the record straight. The reason why there were protests in the 60s was because college professors provoked their students into burning draft cards and protesting our involvement in Vietnam. Once the students graduated they lost their deferment and were eligible for the draft, and they didn't want to serve their country. They didn't care about any of us who were in Vietnam. They only cared about themselves, as long as they didn't have to go, they were happy. Much like the liberals of today, you know gimme, gimme, gimme, but don't ask me to pay. You belong to that group, and brag about it, instead of being ashamed. People like you have ruined this country, and if you are a professor like you say, which is doubtful, you are twisting the minds of students who instead of being taught facts, are being taught leftist propaganda.
Bob, I simply cannot sit back when such garbage is spewed and say nothing. I've been speaking the truth of what we did for over 40 years now and will not stop, whenever the Thomas' of the world step up to spew their propaganda.
Well done, Lew. Brilliantly argued.
Thomas, you're an intellectual lightweight and a moral featherweight. Lew hammered you. Go play on the XBox.
Thank you, Rex. I appreciate the kind words :-)
I can't really add much to this conversation other than the observation that many folks seek only the information they want to believe, effectively ignoring anything contradicting it. History books have their place, but they are typically second hand accounts from an already decided point of view, they often have an agenda of their own. I would consider the information put forth by people who were actually there to be more reliable.
I also lament the absence of any real men in Hollywood supporting conservative ideals. Seems to me, most of the "men" in Hollywood spend their time pandering to political correctness.
Ian, this page might interest you 41 Hollywood Stars Who Stand Up For Their Conservative Values
I also agree, we could sure use more in Hollywood that stand for America and were Patriots
Lew, I had forgotten to consider Chuck Norris and Clint Eastwood. Some of the names on that list surprised me, I hope it is all true, as I grow tired of hearing so much liberal support in mainstream media.
I am 30 years old (birthday is today, actually), but I disagree with much of the politics of my peers, as well as teachers I have had in the past. I think my generation has helped usher in a big liberal, politically correct (when it suits liberal needs) movement. An example would be Bruce jenner "identifying" as a woman and finding overwhelming support for his choice, even being a co-winner of the "Woman of the Year Award". However, a white woman "identified" as a black woman and met with an overwhelming amount of hate and criticism, even being fired from her position. Where is the logic in that?
Then there is the Military Religious Freedom Foundation that consistently targets Christian Chaplains and other Christian service members for their faith. Yet, they do not pursue the Muslim faith in any fashion. They are, essentially, anti-Christian. However, they continue to receive so much support and funding that it boggles my mind.
Meanwhile, Facebook offers 71 gender options for it's users...71! Gender, synonymous with sex according to the Oxford dictionary. Folks are saying that genders are a human contrived thing, that the number of possible gender identities is only limited by the number of people in the world! How the hell do we go from 2 genders to unlimited genders?
Sorry for going on a bit of a rant, I just get so fed up with all this crap that I am told I have to, not only tolerate, but accept. If I don't accept it I am labelled as a cruel, uncaring, evil person. Well, I don't accept any of it as true, or even logical, I think it is a bunch of self-serving sinful behavior and justification for sinful behavior. I am concerned for the wellfare of my children as they grow up in this society.
Rant over, thanks for reading, and thanks for the article link.
Ian, I'll soon turn 68 and recall my own generation doing it's part with promoting Liberalism during the days of the Hippies and Flower Children.
Then too, I think we can trace it back to during the Great Depression and FDR's policies.
But you are right in that it has taken off in a fever pitch today.
I hope your generation wakes up as you did and shoots it down before the Country is done for.
Thanks for stopping by and commenting
Thanks for your service Mr Waters. And it is truly a shame we have "history professors" such as this teaching our children
Thanks for your service Mr Waters
Thanks for your service Mr Waters. And it is truly a shame we have "history professors" such as this teaching our children
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